Same to all of this. Such a vivid memory of striking up a conversation with a German on a bus in the Middle East who, when he realized I was American, gave me an earful on George W. I'd been living overseas for a year and had already started to recognize a lot of the good propaganda, but that was the moment that I realized America wasn't special or some beacon in the world. Eight years in Italy now and I find the way we talk about ourselves so shameful.
I really enjoyed this, especially from my vantage of being a Canadian living in once-benevolent shadow of our bigger brother... I have often joked that everyone worldwide should get to vote in American elections, since the consequences of said elections ripple out to the rest of the world.
Great discussion - the doc about Al Jazeera may be 2004's "Control Room"? I've shown it to my journalism classes in Missouri, and at least one of the students excitedly circled back to tell me they had gone on to intern at Al Jazeera with some of the people in the film.
It's been more than a decade since I watched it, but some of this self-awareness you're urging must involve recognizing, as you say - and doing what we can to take responsibility for - our actions and their impact abroad, as well as here at home. Being aware of the reports and data from independent orgs like the United Nations (UNESCO and UNHRC) and journalists drawing from those sources can help guide our collective way and will, and help tune out the political noise from all sides.
An easy way to broaden your perspective right from your sofa - stream BBC Radio 4 and BBC World Service! Not only are you let in to conversations about "America" and "the Americans" but you might also become addicted to The Archers. 😄
I was born in 1942 in the US and therefore my particularly formative years were the 1950s. This resonates with me completely - I have lived in London since 1968 and still swing from seeing the US as "us" or "them" but it is more and more "them".
I arrived here first (it was some back amd forth for me) when it was Golden Age of forums, or some time around it. I remember that after I decided to write there one of my first threads was "Does it seem to you too that United States remind Soviet Union?"
It was smallish crowd yet back then, and I'm not sure all shared my sentiments, but yes, there is a lot in common, strangely so, or maybe not. In terms of exceptionalism.
We had a lot of jokes about it too, seeing as times were more forgiving, and so-called "kitchen conversations" were possible to be held without fear a neighbor will doom you with a word of his .
Two things I've noticed while living abroad: 1) being an intellectual or artist is not seen as childish in quite the way that Americans make it seem; and 2) knowledge of history is equated with sophistication and maturity.
In those ways I think I belong more in international spaces. I've never had to make a living abroad (other than for a brief stint as a teacher in Uruguay) or raise a family there or contend with the full scale of costs and sacrifices that factor into quality of life. But my default is communal, not solitary, when I start a conversation with someone I expect it will last more than a few beats, and I'm always eager to look beneath the hood of a place -- all of which are more or less welcomed in most of the countries I've visited (Canada maybe less so).
The thing to add to your list is that America is perhaps the country with the vastest amounts of wilderness. Perhaps South America still has more, but it's not developed to the point of being able to easily backpack and "disappear" into the wild. Perhaps I'm wrong about that?
Josh, I think that Russia would beat the US in the vast wilderness category, by a large margin and in absolute terms. In terms of percentage of land mass, Canada and Australia also have way more wilderness than the USA. (Consider: over half of the surface area of Australia has a population density of less than 0.1 persons per square km. For Russia, it looks like it's about 70% or more of the surface area that has a population density of less than 1 person per square km.) I don't know enough about Africa and South America to know for sure, but I think that most African countries and probably (?) most South American countries have substantial wilderness as well.
So, um, yeah....I think the belief "the USA has more wilderness than other countries" may well be another example of what Sam is talking about, what with America's self-mythologizing about the New World, Unspoiled Wilderness, "Go West, young man" and such.
I think he’s talking about accessible wilderness. It’s hard to do much in wilderness without some kind of established trails and decent maps. Read John Muir’s A Thousand Mile Walk to the Gulf and the challenges of not getting lost in 1867 going on foot through what was largely settled country (U.S. Southeast). To get across Florida, his only hope was to follow the railroad bed that had been constructed.
In the U.S. much of this trail maintenance is done by Forest Service crews like what Joshua worked on and has written about. There are also volunteer crews from the American Hiking Society and other groups who work in wilderness areas and on the big national trails (Appalachian, Pacific Crest, Continental Divide). Much of the ethos of this work comes from the early enthusiasts like Muir, Bob Marshall and others who helped promote wilderness areas both in the Western U.S. as well as the Adirondacks.
But then we're not exactly talking about an untamed wilderness--we're actually talking about a curated nature experience because of people who maintain the trails and campgrounds. I think the US might be unique in that regard, in that there's a large amount of nature that is maintained in a way that facilitates people exploring. I think that the USA has a unique history that included a lot of wilderness getting intentionally conserved in a way that made it open to public exploration in a way that most of the world did not.
In terms of proportion of territory that is this kind of accessible nature, I think that Iceland and Norway might be comparable to the USA.
For instance, here's a map of Iceland by population density:
Of course, Iceland and Norway are much smaller in terms of absolute territory than the USA, so there will be much less total curated wilderness in those countries.
Same to all of this. Such a vivid memory of striking up a conversation with a German on a bus in the Middle East who, when he realized I was American, gave me an earful on George W. I'd been living overseas for a year and had already started to recognize a lot of the good propaganda, but that was the moment that I realized America wasn't special or some beacon in the world. Eight years in Italy now and I find the way we talk about ourselves so shameful.
I really enjoyed this, especially from my vantage of being a Canadian living in once-benevolent shadow of our bigger brother... I have often joked that everyone worldwide should get to vote in American elections, since the consequences of said elections ripple out to the rest of the world.
This is excellent, Sam.
Great discussion - the doc about Al Jazeera may be 2004's "Control Room"? I've shown it to my journalism classes in Missouri, and at least one of the students excitedly circled back to tell me they had gone on to intern at Al Jazeera with some of the people in the film.
It's been more than a decade since I watched it, but some of this self-awareness you're urging must involve recognizing, as you say - and doing what we can to take responsibility for - our actions and their impact abroad, as well as here at home. Being aware of the reports and data from independent orgs like the United Nations (UNESCO and UNHRC) and journalists drawing from those sources can help guide our collective way and will, and help tune out the political noise from all sides.
An easy way to broaden your perspective right from your sofa - stream BBC Radio 4 and BBC World Service! Not only are you let in to conversations about "America" and "the Americans" but you might also become addicted to The Archers. 😄
I was born in 1942 in the US and therefore my particularly formative years were the 1950s. This resonates with me completely - I have lived in London since 1968 and still swing from seeing the US as "us" or "them" but it is more and more "them".
I arrived here first (it was some back amd forth for me) when it was Golden Age of forums, or some time around it. I remember that after I decided to write there one of my first threads was "Does it seem to you too that United States remind Soviet Union?"
It was smallish crowd yet back then, and I'm not sure all shared my sentiments, but yes, there is a lot in common, strangely so, or maybe not. In terms of exceptionalism.
We had a lot of jokes about it too, seeing as times were more forgiving, and so-called "kitchen conversations" were possible to be held without fear a neighbor will doom you with a word of his .
Thank you for breaking it down, Sam
Two things I've noticed while living abroad: 1) being an intellectual or artist is not seen as childish in quite the way that Americans make it seem; and 2) knowledge of history is equated with sophistication and maturity.
In those ways I think I belong more in international spaces. I've never had to make a living abroad (other than for a brief stint as a teacher in Uruguay) or raise a family there or contend with the full scale of costs and sacrifices that factor into quality of life. But my default is communal, not solitary, when I start a conversation with someone I expect it will last more than a few beats, and I'm always eager to look beneath the hood of a place -- all of which are more or less welcomed in most of the countries I've visited (Canada maybe less so).
The thing to add to your list is that America is perhaps the country with the vastest amounts of wilderness. Perhaps South America still has more, but it's not developed to the point of being able to easily backpack and "disappear" into the wild. Perhaps I'm wrong about that?
Josh, I think that Russia would beat the US in the vast wilderness category, by a large margin and in absolute terms. In terms of percentage of land mass, Canada and Australia also have way more wilderness than the USA. (Consider: over half of the surface area of Australia has a population density of less than 0.1 persons per square km. For Russia, it looks like it's about 70% or more of the surface area that has a population density of less than 1 person per square km.) I don't know enough about Africa and South America to know for sure, but I think that most African countries and probably (?) most South American countries have substantial wilderness as well.
So, um, yeah....I think the belief "the USA has more wilderness than other countries" may well be another example of what Sam is talking about, what with America's self-mythologizing about the New World, Unspoiled Wilderness, "Go West, young man" and such.
Some quickly found maps:
Russia population density map: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Russia_Population_Density_Map_2021.png
Canada population density map: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/91-214-x/2023001/section01-eng.htm
US population density map: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2021/geo/population-distribution-2020.html
I think he’s talking about accessible wilderness. It’s hard to do much in wilderness without some kind of established trails and decent maps. Read John Muir’s A Thousand Mile Walk to the Gulf and the challenges of not getting lost in 1867 going on foot through what was largely settled country (U.S. Southeast). To get across Florida, his only hope was to follow the railroad bed that had been constructed.
In the U.S. much of this trail maintenance is done by Forest Service crews like what Joshua worked on and has written about. There are also volunteer crews from the American Hiking Society and other groups who work in wilderness areas and on the big national trails (Appalachian, Pacific Crest, Continental Divide). Much of the ethos of this work comes from the early enthusiasts like Muir, Bob Marshall and others who helped promote wilderness areas both in the Western U.S. as well as the Adirondacks.
But then we're not exactly talking about an untamed wilderness--we're actually talking about a curated nature experience because of people who maintain the trails and campgrounds. I think the US might be unique in that regard, in that there's a large amount of nature that is maintained in a way that facilitates people exploring. I think that the USA has a unique history that included a lot of wilderness getting intentionally conserved in a way that made it open to public exploration in a way that most of the world did not.
In terms of proportion of territory that is this kind of accessible nature, I think that Iceland and Norway might be comparable to the USA.
For instance, here's a map of Iceland by population density:
https://www.eea.europa.eu/soer/2010/countries/is/freshwater-drivers-and-pressures-iceland/WaterDPFig1.png/image_view_fullscreen
And here's a map of Iceland's maintained national parks and nature reserves: https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/figures/national-parks-and-nature-reserves/map-7.4_mountains.eps
Of course, Iceland and Norway are much smaller in terms of absolute territory than the USA, so there will be much less total curated wilderness in those countries.
I love this discussion
Useful insights!